[John] I was talking with Paul Jenkins about the essay (1) he wrote on your song lyrics, and one thing he said that he couldn’t get much of a handle on, was the ‘religious’ content.

[Ralph] Oh yeah, right.

There’s so much stuff in your writing - little snippets, little phrases - which can come from only one place.

Yes.

For example, there’s a song in ‘Time’s Poems’, which I knew about but never heard, called ‘My Father’s House’

Yes.

At first reading, you think, “There’s no religious content here at all”. But you read it again, and by the 4th or 5th time, you’re thinkng, “I know where Ralph is coming from on this one”, because the only place the phrase can come from is: “There are many...

...mansions

...in my Father’s house”.

Extract from My Father's House

by Ralph McTell

My father's house I have outgrown
I would be the thousand
I would stand alone
These chains that hold me
Are broken not spurned
Everything changes
Everything returns

Yeah, that’s right.

This is the doubting coming out again. This is Jesus reflecting on everything, and thinking, “Well...”.

Well, you’re right, you’re half right. It’s actually… many years ago, a man called Conrad Rooks got in touch with me, through Tony Visconti. He was filming the story of Siddhartha, and he wanted to use ‘The Ferryman’ in the film. And, of course, I’d read the book ‘Siddhartha’ by Hermann Hesse, and I loved it.

And although I don’t fully understand - I don’t think you do fully understand the Buddhist religion, because then you’d be enlightened, as they call it - I was intrigued by some of the, let’s say, the ambiguities between... Buddhism allows you to self-determine, doesn’t it? You kind of find your own way through meditation. And here was a case of, quite literally, the boy leaving the guidance of his father’s house.

“In my Father's house
are many mansions;
if it were not so,
I would have told you.”

John 14:2

But it was quite clearly a reference to ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you.’

Applying the Buddhist philosophy, where the father in this case could be the monk, or the head of the monastery?

Indeed, or he could have been the great overseeing paternalistic world that he had to leave in order to find spititual enlightenment, you know, that’s the thing.

And then, ‘Everything changes, everything returns’ - recycling.

‘Everything changes, everything returns’, yeah - that was a Buddhist thing.

Yes. Well, it’s not far away from Resurrection!

[Laughs] In fact, I had a lovely moment there, because they sent for an Indian musician from the fifties, a guy who wrote film music, called Hemanta Kumar, who came to England. He came to our little house in Putney, and we entertained him to dinner and talked about music. His English wasn’t good, but, honestly, he’d written some absolutely lovely music.

This great spiritual thing was marvellous for me - to think this song was going to find its way into a film, and da-di-da-di-da. Tony was totally besotted with Eastern religion, and a huge fan of this Indian man - he studied the music, and he learned how to count the strange beats and rhythms, and understood the sitar and took it up, and all the rest of it. But, unfortunately, it didn’t happen. (2)

I’m sure Mr Hemanta Kumar is long since gone - he was an elderly man when we met. (3) But I came across the letter of thanks just the other day, in the back of a drawer somewhere, where he thanked us for our hospitality and everything.

So, the ethos of this goes along with ‘The Ferryman’, then?

Yes.

Fantastic! Thank you for explaining that, Ralph.

Not at all.

And that’s what happens with a lot of your songs: it’s almost a side-swipe. It’s clear where the phrase has come from, but you’ve looked at it from a different angle and taken it to another place.

Siddhartha (1972)

“Conrad Rooks... wanted to use ‘The Ferryman’ in the film.”

I’m so pleased I’ve got someone out there that’s trying to find all this out, John. This is lifting my spirits no end!

Oh, excellent! Well, I don’t want to make it up, you see!

[Laughs] No, it is true...

So, with the ‘small voice’, my immediate thought was ‘Samuel’, and that’s what you’ve confirmed.

It’s wonderful stuff. It was a huge comfort to me as a little boy. And I was very, very, lost, you know, as a little lad. I’ve written about when I heard voices and saw angels. And they didn’t surprise or worry me, particularly. And I try to blur the edges of that thing, ’cause I got tremendous riches from all of those stories, you know. I can’t deny it.

Demetrius and the Gladiators (1954)

.“...the ’50s were the age of the Biblical epic...”

Also, the ’50s were the age of the Biblical epic, you know - ‘The Robe’, ‘Demetrius and the Gladiators’, and all those things. They added great visual stength to your philosophy. If I saw rays of sunlight streaming through a woodland, I wouldn’t have been a bit surprised if Jesus had walked down one of them and had a quick natter with me . It wouldn’t have surprised me at all, you know.

That’s exactly the right idea, Ralph, keep it up! He may surprise you yet.

[Laughs] Anyway...

Well, that’s it. They’re songs of faith – and faith is when you see the ray of sunlight and you do remember God’s promise. That’s how it works for me, anyway. Its simple stuff.

Good.

Ralph, thank you very much. I have one more question...

(1) See ‘Recurring Themes in the Songs of Ralph McTell’. Paul also wrote the booklet notes for ‘The Journey’ box set and the ‘Bridge of Sighs’ CD.

(2) In the event, Hemant Kumar wrote and performed the songs for the film.

(3) Hemanta Kumar Mukhopadhyay, also known as Hemanta Mukherjee and Hemant Kumar, died in 1989, aged 69.